Tuesday, March 9, 2010

Sometimes things need to happen with force

I'm a very peaceful type of person and I hate confrontation of any kind. I try to avoid it as much as possible in my own life and that works out quite well for me. And normally when I see a situation, whether it's small or important, I think that there could be a peaceful way to go about it. But I'm starting to realize that there are times when force is needed. Yes, it ends up being violence, but there *are* times that violence is needed. Self-defense is a time when violence can be necessary and OK. I think anyone would agree about that. I also think that defense of others can make force necessary.

A bit ago, someone posted about the Israeli ambassador speaking somewhere and Muslim students (from the Muslim Student Union) interrupted the speech with yelling, booing and insults, and would not let him finish basically. When I first read that, I thought it was a disgusting attitude to have. As Muslims, we should be polite and not barbaric! I thought of freedom of speech that even this Israeli ambassador was entitled to.

There were some comments from Muslims supporting what happened. They gave the example of Ahmadinejad speaking a couple years ago. I know there were protests and I'm not sure exactly how bad it was, but if he was interrupted in this manner, would we really have considered it something so bad? Probably not. Freedom of speech is important, but I think a person needs to earn it by also respecting others. Well, even if they don't earn it, they still have that right, but they can also expect to not be listened to. I'm not sure exactly what the Israeli dude was talking about, but Zionism doesn't deserve the courtesy of being listened to.

Sometimes things need to be a bit brutal to get the point across. I thought some pamphlets might've been a good idea for that speech, but the Muslims showing this person that he didn't deserve to be heard was not as terrible an action as I originally saw it as.

So anyway, it got me thinking about something someone asked me a while ago when I wrote about an Islamic state. Would the ideal Islamic state I was imagining consider freeing Palestine a reason to go to war? I didn't really know. I'd be in no place to make the decision and I was in no place to even form a real opinion, but I can say now that YES. As much as I wish things could happen peacefully, they just will not. And Palestine needs more than peaceful methods to get what is their's. And I now feel that force needs to be used.

14 Comentários:

Baji said...

hey! asalaam alekum!

i just wanted to point out something:

which is ruder? the president of columbia university inviting ahmadinejad to speak and while "introducing" him, he calls him a dictator, ridiculous, and lacking the intelligent to answer the questions, OR the california university which invited the israeli ambassador (i'm guessing warmly) and only some students in the audience protesting/interrupting.

i believe the former is much worse.

great to hear ur voice about this topic, and i hope more people aren't afraid to speak out.

Candice said...

Yes, the first one seems ruder for sure. I have a hard time believing the MSA would have invited someone just to insult him. What they did was demonstrate.

I used to think of this case as being similar to the nutsness that happened over the Muhammad cartoons. But seriously, it's a totally different situation. In this case, the man represents Israel and what it stands for. In the other case, the Danish government does not represent the individuals who drew and published the offensive cartoons. The violence that happened over that was just not cool. We have people dying in Palestine and they choose to fight a couple Danish people who dislike Islam.

Susanne said...

I see Caliph Candice is making plans! :) Enjoyed this!

caraboska said...

The borders of Israel are spelled out in the Bible - and we have very old texts which show that the text of the Torah has not changed since long before Jesus walked this earth. The only question is whether, in this day and age, the rightful owners of that territory are allowed to use force to take it back/maintain their possession of it.

There are various views espoused by people who hold to the Bible as their norm:

There are those who believe that yes, just as Israel was told to execute judgment on the idolatrous tribes living in Canaan and take that land as their own possession back in Torah times, it is also their job to take possession of it now - and all the more so given what happened to the Jewish people during World War II.

There are those who believe that if Israel was thrown out of the Promised Land, it was on account of disobedience, so that what they must do first of all is (depending on the particular variant of this view one adheres to) either make teshuvah (i.e. repent - become observant of the Law) or accept the Messiah (i.e. Jesus).

And there are those who believe that in today's day and age, it is Messiah's and Messiah's job alone to restore that land to Israel. Many of those who believe that they have to start by making teshuvah also hold to this view.

But because of the clear instructions in the Bible about the borders of Israel, I think we cannot claim that Zionism (in the sense of a belief that this land does in fact belong to the Jewish people) is anything but legitimate, even if we disagree about what is currently being done about these facts.

Candice said...

Susanne: LOL, love that! :P

caraboska: Can't answer that in much detail because I don't know anything about the Torah. But obviously people believe it's the right interpretation because it's happening. I only know that I don't believe it's legitimate. And if this was truly a message from God at the time, it was probably not meant for the race of people (the Jews), but for people who believed the truth about God against ones who were fighting against God. So no, I won't accept that there is a chosen race. These are just thoughts in my head that come after reading your comment.

Mrs. S said...

"But because of the clear instructions in the Bible about the borders of Israel, I think we cannot claim that Zionism (in the sense of a belief that this land does in fact belong to the Jewish people) is anything but legitimate..."

I'll be sure and pass that statement on to my aunt and the rest of my relatives and neighbors when I'm in the West Bank again this summer and we look at the Israeli only express road running through the town and destroying the olive and fig groves.

caraboska said...

Mrs. S, Before you do that, how about you consider that there are people who believe that Saudi Arabia not only rightfully belongs to Muslims, but that non-Muslims have no business living there. Not even modern Israel believes that non-Jews have no business living there. Their problem right now is security in a situation where they are surrounded by nations which would like to wipe them off the face of the planet because they (the other nations) do not agree with the Torah's statements about the borders of Israel. I don't approve of destroying the land or of 'Israeli only roads'. But I don't think the solution is to pretend that what is written in the Torah is not there.

The thing that many people forget about this 'Chosen People' business is that God did not choose Israel because it was some great nation. Quite the contrary. He chose it because it had nothing going for it - except Him, once He chose it for Himself. I don't see a lot of glorifying of God going on in Israel at the moment. I do think that they need to start there. Everyone needs to start there. The fact remains, however, that if God says to a nation 'Him who blesses you I will bless, and him who curses you, I will curse', then we need to fear Him and understand that we cannot just do whatever we please concerning that nation, just as that nation cannot just do whatever it pleases with regard to God. In other words, I have grave reservations about both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian question.

Apparently there were times when it was possible for Jews and non-Jews to live amicably in Israel. So let no one say it is impossible. It may be that this time was before 1948 - i.e. at a time when the land in question was under the political control of a third party. And I am 100% sure that the problem will only be solved when all of the interested parties recognize that that land belongs ultimately to God and is His to do with as He pleases.

Susanne said...

I strongly disagree with Zionists even though I come from a very pro-Israel background and area. Once I found out more about these people, I realized how anti-God their goals are. Even if one justified taking over land from the Old Testament, you need to adhere to all the conditions of how to treat people which modern Zionists have NOT done.

Most Christians believe Jesus fulfilled the Law and changed a lot of things, however, they are stuck going back to OT teachings re: the nation of Israel because of their understanding of prophecy.

Jesus taught that the MEEK would inherit the earth, not the Zionists going in there treating people cruelly!

Why are these people going back to a Joshua-type mentality?

Susanne said...

Caraboska, I'm glad you ended your comment with us recalling that the land belongs to God. Well said.

I believe that verse you quoted has been used by many here in America to justify letting Israel get by with whatever atrocities it wants. First they don't truly understand what all has been done by them since our media is so slanted. And they have often remained ignorant of finding out the truth thinking everyone wants to wipe poor little ol' Israel off the map because everyone just intrinsically hates Jews.

When you start talking to people on the other side and finding out the truth, the picture becomes much clearer and you realize why people say such things. It makes much more sense to me now.

As for the verse about blessing those who bless you...let me ask you something. How do you bless an alcoholic or drug-addicted friend? Do you give them money so they can stay in their happy stupor? Or do you "bless" them by getting them help and sharing with them about the deliverance they can acquire with God's help?

I think we can "bless" Israel by urging this nation to treat people kindly and to turn back to God. NOT by blindly supporting everything Israel does as a violence-addicted, selfish, land-grabbing nation who needs to be changed by God.

Many Israelis aren't even religious so how we can justify our support of them? Did God give Israel a free pass? If anyone reads through the OT, they will see how often God condemns Israel for its mistreatment of people and the injustices and turning back from godly living.

By the way, I saw you said you were on neither side fully so I'm not preaching at YOU...just I think these things need saying to people like me back here in the States. Thankfully God has used my relationships with Arabs and other Americans to change my views on this issue the last couple of years.

I agree with you. The land is God, not any chosen peoples.

Mrs. S said...

Caraboska, please don't make assumptions on my views or knowledge in regards to Middle East politics and in particular the topic of Israel. I sarcastically expressed a view point from firsthand experience and my personal treatment in the West Bank and Israel and the treatment of people I know.

I'm sorry, but saying that "the land is God's" and the borders of the land of Israel are in the Bible means nothing to people who live in refugee camps or who can (like my relatives) ironically see Jerusalem from their town but are not allowed to physically go because their ID card isn't from the Quds. I'm also going to be so bold as to say it means nothing to the IDF who verbally assault you at checkpoints and break anything in your luggage they deem needs further inspection.

I clearly understand and respect the points you are attempting to make, and I hope that you can understand that in my opinion theological “evidence” means very little in the struggle for a practical and just solution to end the violence.

caraboska said...

Susanne, In this case, it's more like 'How do you bless a chronically, egregiously sinful spouse?' You might kick them out of the house - TEMPORARILY. It's a huge step from there to saying they can never come back under any circumstances, that that home is no longer theirs, period. I understand Christianity to teach that this second option is not permissible. And I also understand it to teach that God has not done so either with respect to Israel. So I still believe that God has stated in the Torah to whom He has decided to give the land within those borders, and that anyone who has a problem with that has a problem not with Israel, but with God. On the other hand, God has also laid down certain guidelines for our behavior, and in the measure that Israel does not want to adhere to these guidelines, it has a problem not with the nations around it, but with God.

As far as what our attitude should be towards Israel in the present circumstances, I commend to you Romans 9-11.

Susanne said...

Caraboska, yes, I know God is able to graft them in again IF they believe (Romans 11:23), but the majority do not. I'm only arguing for the sake of treating people kindly. I don't think God likes the racism and cruelty that "His Chosen People" show to the world. That is NOT how God is. Even in their own Law, it tells how they are to treat the stranger in their midst. Even if one argued that the land is theirs according to the Torah, they should see how God commanded them to treat the stranger as a brother.

I'm not saying God is finished with the Jews, please don't misunderstand me. I'm only standing up against the cruel and anti-God stance many of the *Zionists* have. Even many Orthodox Jews are against what these people have done!

Let's just say they aren't loving their neighbors ... much less their enemies. But do we dismiss Jesus' standards and give them a free pass because they are "the chosen ones"? Did Jesus give the Jews a free pass in his day?

I recall the Jews as the ones who were to be a blessing to the other nations. Why not start with the people living in their midst?

It'd be a good start. :)

Susanne said...

Oh, and going back to your sinful spouse analogy,I think you let the hateful hubby home when he stops sinning, right? Romans 11:23 seems to teach that they will be grafted in again when they believe. So I still think you can bless Israel by urging her to do God's teachings and observe His ways rather than giving her the drugs (weapons, support) to continue her bad addiction.

But that's just my opinion and maybe I'm totally wrong.

proto said...

"..the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."

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