Wednesday, January 6, 2010

Agnostic Muslim

This is what I consider myself, after thinking about it a bit. I don't think there is any way to know if there is or isn't a God, but I personally believe there is. And I believe in Islam. Any other Muslims or theists out there consider themselves agnostic?

45 Comentários:

Anonymous said...

yes for awhile I was thinking I'm an agnostic muslim, guess I couldn't get past all the divisions and extremes in Islam now I feel more like a muslim unitarian if thats even possible

wasalam
SP

Wrestling With Religion said...

I am sort of agnostic, I guess. I've always believed in God and always had a strong sense of there being a God, but I'm well aware that is subjective and I can't prove anything.

@anon: I think unitarian means you believe in one God, in which case Muslims are unitarian by default.

Candice said...

Anon: I think you might mean universalist. If so, I feel that way too in a lot of ways. I feel I am close to Unitarian Universalism although I'm not ready to say I consider myself a unitarian universalist Muslim. lol. Seeing as it's a religion in and of itself, it just doesn't work that well. But still!

marie said...

Not at all, agnostic means one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god,
As a muslim, I beleive in one God.

Zuhura said...

I am a Muslim and a Unitarian Universalist. I don't see any contradiction.

Candice said...

Marie: For some people, not being committed to either position (like you explained), but for others, it's simply acknowledging that there is no way to know for sure, but maintaining a position anyway. Just like an agnostic atheist is someone who admits to not knowing but personally does not think there is a God. I admit to not knowing for sure, but I do think there is a God.

Zuhura: Thanks for writing that! I also don't see any contradiction with those two religions. Except for the fact that they are two different religions. It seems weird to be both. I think it's more reasonable than someone who is both a Christian and a Muslim or something, but I will need to think about it some more. I might end up manifesting myself that way. :)

Stacy aka Fahiima said...

There is also the concept of Deism, where there is definitely a creator, but God is not involved in day-to-day human affairs.

marie said...

When you say your sahada as a muslim, you erase all doubts.
If you have doubts that there's a God how can you truly say shahada and believe it,it's the basis of being a muslim

Wrestling With Religion said...

@marie,

"If you have doubts that there's a God how can you truly say shahada and believe it"

It's like when a juror says, "I believe the defendent is guilty/innocent". There is always the possibility he is wrong, and he knows that, but that doesn't mean he can't come to a belief.

Admin said...

My opinion is: I don't think there have some think like a Agnostic Muslim.
A person believe in God or he doesn't'

There is no need for a person to prove anything. All that is on earth is a prove that there is a God.

And the Holy Quran is also a prove from God.

If a person have doubts this is something else. But I don't think it can be called Agnostic Muslim.

If a person have doubts he/she should search for the answers of his/her questions and ask guidance from Allah=

And we're just humans and we can't know everything.

Even if the answer is not yet found this not means there is no God.

God Exist this is for sure.

Stephanie said...

There's a possibility that the reality I'm experiencing really isn't reality at all. There's a possibility that 6 could turn out to be nine, or that we're really living in the fifth dimension or whatever. Surely, human faculties are a limitation to our understanding and expression of truth. I might even go so far as to say there is a possibility that the universalists idea of God is correct, and I'm just choosing to understand and comprehend Him within the context of Islam. But no, I have no doubt there is a God in existence. La illaha ilAllah.

marie said...

lol, guilty/innocent??

Shahada is stating that you beleive that there's one God and only one God,it's not " I think maybe there is one God"
So you are muslim or you are not...

Zuhura said...

It depends how you define "religion," Candace. Many Unitarian Universalists do not consider it a religion. For me it's a religious community -- a welcoming intellectual and social space where religion and spirituality are discussed -- but not a religion.

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote, and they seem to me quite in line with Islam:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Many UUs believe in God and practice prayer, while many do not. A very small minority identify as Muslims. As long as we respect one another's beliefs we can all be UU.

Candice said...

I knew this was going to be a hard one for most Muslims to understand... Because from experience, I know Muslims generally believe that there is proof showing that there is a God. But I know there isn't that proof. No one will ever prove the existance or nonexistance of God. There are things that will make us believe He exists (and for atheists, things that will make them believe there is no God), but no real proof. No matter how convinced you are, it's still a belief that you personally hold that there is a God. And be clear, I hold that belief myself.

Zuhura: I can see how it might be seen as a religion, and not at the same time. Thanks for posting those 7 principles. I definitely believe in that. I really will look into this some more. Such an interesting "religion". :)

Hubby said...

I understand how a lot of you do not know for sure about there being a God and only speculate your beliefs. Personnally I was lucky enough to have him hold me once during a very bad time, so I could never be Agnostic. I only pass this along so more of you can be more certain of your belief in God.

2. According to the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations at: http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml, They believe in the "Wisdom from the world's religions which inspire us in our ethical and spiritual life; Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;"

There are other Contradictions with Islam, but those are two big ones as Islam teaches that it is the ONLY TRUE RELIGION as it is the EXACT WORDS OF GOD. It also teaches that Christianity and Judaism have become fabrications due to human interaction with the texts, thus you couldn't trust them enough to learn from them.

So, I would have to say that you cannot actually be both a Muslim and a Unitarian Universalist. However, it seems many of the Muslims similar to my wife take what they want from the Quran as the Words of God and say the other stuff is "a bad translation" even if those that learned the Quran in Arabic and know the language are stating the same thing the "bad translation" state. Under that route to being a Muslim, yes you could be both.

Anisah said...

Sorry Candice..I have to go along with Marie..
I mean..like how can you live a life of a Muslim and not know for sure.. it's impossible and there is no submission... even ur prayers are invalid....

As a Muslim I understand what your saying.. except maybe I would ask you to think.. are you making excuses not to believe...cause maybe submitting scares you?

I don't think it is necessarily bad what you are saying...but part of being a Muslim and believing is having fear of Allah...he is the creator..we owe Allah everything...if your not SURE there is a God..and only one God.... living the life of a Muslim is dedicating your life to God..and obeying

to me it's kinda like.. a child not respecting its parent..

I guess part of the reason I became Muslim is because I saw this proof on my own.

ur in my prayers and I pray that you can one day really submit to Allah and not have to wonder and think about it..but instead follow and obey and feel his love and mercy.Incha'Allah. We all have tests and trials about our faith..and I beleive its a journey in which a person MUST go through in order to reach the right path. May your path follow the straight one incha'allah..

xox pls don;t take offense , I just feel you should be taking Islam more seriously...Incha'Allah

marie said...

Candice, it's not a question of not understanding.
As a muslim ,one of the five pillars, the most important is believing that there is a God and only one God, not room to doubt, or saying I think there is a God but I have no prove??
It's just an oxymoron,makes no sense.
I am sorry but you need to speak to a scholar,shaytan is whispering in your ear.May Allah guide us always.

Wrestling With Religion said...

Someone told me there is a hadith saying that doubts are a sign of sincere faith. I don't know if there is such a hadith but I certainly think that's true.

Zuhura said...

Hubby, the reference to Jewish and Christian teachings in your quote from the UUA is just an example, not the meat of being UU. A UU can use wisdom from any/all of the world's religions to isnpire him/her to an ethnical and spiritual life; there is no requirement to use Jewish and Christian teachings, though many UUs do because they were raised Jewish or Christian. As a Muslim UU, I choose to use the Qu'ran as my religious text. However, I believe that people can learn from any text, religious or otherwise, and so I can learn from the Bible or the Torah approaching them as interesting stories, just as I can learn from poetry or from the newspaper.

Candice said...

Hubby: Zuhura got back to you already, but I was going to reply something similar about UU. What you pasted there means that they find wisdom in world religions, which I do. Mine is Islam, like Zuhura, but I also can find good in Christianity, Buddhism, etc. even if I don't believe the Bible is the literal word of God or that Buddha was necessarily a prophet of God.

I take everything from the Qur'an, but I also think there is some problem with interpretation of some verses (and for me, this comes out in translations of those verses) and so I am careful. I don't believe there is anything false in the Qur'an, but there are things that are not interpreted right.

Anisah: Thanks for commenting. I know you don't mean offense, and I'm not offended. I don't agree that my prayers are invalid because I recognize humans incapability of knowing things. I see the difference between belief and knowledge. I can feel I know something and use the word "know", but a lot of the times, what we "know", we really just believe. And in matters like religion, we use the word "believe" and think that means we know. Nothing wrong with taking it as knowledge, that's just how we live, but to me, it's not. No matter how strongly we believe that it is.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying because I'm not saying I believe there might not be a God, I'm saying I believe there is a God, but no one can know because there is no way to prove that kind of thing. We just all have our beliefs about these things. Your's is Islam. Mine is too.

The part of your comment that is closest to causing offense is the one about taking Islam seriously. It's nothing you can know about so it wasn't right to say it. But I can't be offended knowing that I am not the ideal Muslimah at all and I do have a lot to work on.

Candice said...

Marie: I don't think it's an oxymoron to say that a person believes something they cannot know for sure. We have beliefs about *everything* around us and we hardly ever KNOW.

There are things that lead me to believe there's a God and this is my "proof", but I feel that proof is the wrong word for these signs.

WWR (Sarah): That would be a nice hadith, I'd like to see it!

Zuhura: That's the way I saw that quoted part too. With the origin of UU, it's normal for those religions to be mentioned, but they don't make it the only thing that can be used for wisdom.

marie said...

I never said it's an oxymoron to say that a person believes something they cannot know for sure.

I said it's an oxymoron to say lâ ilâha illallâh,and at the same time say that you are agnostic, you believe or you don't.

Candice said...

I thought I'd been clearer in my explanation. Agnostic doesn't mean a person doesn't believe.

LK said...

Unitarian Universalist is a good way to discribe where I sit now. Even if I was muslim, I'd still believe good can be found in many other religions as well and that you can learn from other religions.

Great info Candice!

Hubby said...

Of course you can learn from all religions, but what UU stated was "Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves". Thus, it obviously does not mention Islam as it is the fear factor of the Abrahamic Religions. Judaism is in between and Christianity teaches primarily about love. Thus, it states Jewish AND Christian, not pick and choose this or that. Kind of like the Quran is supposed by Muslims to be the exact Word of God with not human interference, so there can be no error or else the Quran would no longer serve the purpose it was supposed to have been sent through Muhammad to provide.

Islam is the most Fundamentalist religion there is. Everything is black and white. Either you accept or you don't. It is all right there in your Quran. Read it and you have to open your eyes to this understanding. Personnaly I cannot put my faith in it, my wife does and that is fine as I know God loves all of us.

ellen557 said...

You said: "I don't think there is any way to know if there is or isn't a God, but I personally believe there is." Sooo, for everyone who has doubts re Candice's faith, she just said "La ilaha il Allah" *but* that she understands that there may not be concrete evidence and ***despite that**** "She personally believes there is a God."

Correct me if I'm wrong, Candice, but it seems that in this post you are stating your belief in God but that you can understand if others have doubts? I don't see what is so bad about that...

Zuhura said...

Hubby, you're misrepresenting both Islam and UU.

Anonymous said...

This is the part she wrote that causes the confusion = " I admit to not knowing for sure, but I do think there is a God. "

Saying she doesn't know and that she "thinks" there is a God is not saying" lâ ilâha illallâh"

ellen557 said...

But, anon, she said in the post, word for word "I personally believe there is." So that is Candice right there stating that she believes there is a God.

Anonymous said...

She also said "" I admit to not knowing for sure, but I do think there is a God. "" so there 's a doubt in her mind, it's her words not mine, she calls herself agnostic.
I just said that if you say "lâ ilâha illallâh" and truly believe it,there is no place for doubts

Wrestling With Religion said...

Faith is the opposite of certainty. This wasn't something I wanted to admit when I was very into religion, but it's true when you think about it. And I think the effects of admitting it are good.

I like Richard Holloway's take on this. He says in an interview here:

"The trouble with people who hold absolutist opinions is that they tend not to be capable of negotiating with other points of view... It gives you immense confidence; it can also blind you immensely as well... So I think what I’m calling for in all of these aspects is a kind of modesty, a kind of openness to the possibility that you might not have got everything right.

I’m very fond of a poem from which I’ve used a line as the title for one of my books. It’s Doubts and Loves and it’s a poem by an israeli poet Yahudi Amichai and it goes like this:

From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring.

The place where we are right
Is hard and trampled
Like a yard.

But doubts and loves
Dig up the world
Like a mole, a plow.
And a whisper will be heard in the place
Where the ruined
House once stood.

And I think there’s something lovely about doubt and uncertainty; they do not crucify people. And I think that doubts and loves really do dig up the world, they dig up our prejudices and make us aware of the impact we’re having on other people. If anything, my book’s about some ways to get people to be a little less certain, a little more compassionate, a little more able to put themselves into the lives and shoes of other people, especially people who are having a hard time."

Anisah said...

yeah ur right , I had no right to say that ur prayers would not be accepted.. that is only for Allah to decide.
and hey..there is no "ideal" Muslim..every one strives to be better and no one is perfect and each one has a different "jihad" to overcome
I guess. to me.. to believe is to know for sure...

emm let me say an example.. for instance.. ones own child or a spouse. we never KNOW for sure that they love us...we believe.. but believing is knowing...
so I guess its how u look at it..

Hubby said...

Zuhura,

I provide proof of what I say and yet you expect me to just take your word for it? Your name might as well be Anonomous as you don't have a blog or anything to follow to give your words any substance.

Wrestling with Religion,

Personnaly I agree with you. If God wanted us to know the "truth" he would have tatooed it on our arms so we could read it and be reminded. However; you are dealing with Muslims that believe the Quran is the literal words of God. They believe that the Quran is the "truth" brought because the Bible and Torah had become so estranged from it.

Candice said...

Hubby: I don't think they have to state all the religions that promote loving our neighbours. UU has been influenced more by Christian and Jewish faiths maybe, but they are obviously open to any religion and that is clear to me.

A person who considers him or herself UU and Muslim might have a different interpretation of Islam than the average Muslim, but it doesn't mean it's not Islam and it doesn't mean it's wrong. And no, Islam is not black and white, but it can seem to be to someone who is new to it.

And about Zuhura, she has posted before and so I know about her now. She risks having an imposter using her same name by not having an account, but I don't think it's that likely. So for me, she's not anonymous.

Ellen: Thanks for your support. I think you understood what I was saying!

Anon: I admit to not knowing, but I also think no one can know. There is no knowledge in belief.

WWR (Sarah): Thanks for that, very nice.

Anisah: Yes, we do feel like believing is knowing, and we must live like that. But the reality is that it's not!

Zuhura said...

Hubby, I haven't seen you provide proof of anything you've said, other than a quote from a website that you are taking out of context and misinterpreting. You are painting two belief systems, neither of which you follow, in very broad strokes. In contrast, I am a practicing Muslim and a member of a UU church and am talking about what I personally believe and what I have observed in UU congregations over a number of years. I don't believe that the latter requires "proof."

Hubby said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hubby said...

Candice,

Are the words in the Quran the literal words of God or has the Quran been tampered with by humans?

Essentially being a Muslim is as simple as saying yes to the above. Either you believe the words of the Quran are from God delivered through Muhammad or you don't. Seems quite black and white to me. Now if you do believe that is true and thus are a Muslim, then you cannot dispute that which is stated in the Quran because that would be to dispute God. So, being a Muslim is in definition being a Fundamentalist whom by definition organize in black and white, wrong or right, no grey area.

Sorry to break that to you.

Jamilah said...

Asalamu Alaikum Candice

Take your time and figure things out in your own way. I'll make dua for you... and please watch out for the shark infested waters.

Candice said...

Hubby, I seriously didn't appreciate your comment to Zuhura and I'd like for you to either delete that or if not possible, ask me to. I won't do it right now and right away because I think Zuhura might want to reply.

I don't even know how to reply to that myself except that I really wonder what kind of proof you want of her belief in Islam and UU. I agree with a comment of her's that you simply don't understand either religion.

To reply specifically to your claim that by definition, being Muslim is being fundamentalist, I obviously disagree very strongly. At least in the way I feel you mean that word (fundamentalist). For you, it means that in Islam, it's all black and white and there is no room for interpretation. Anything that a person gets from the Qur'an has been interpreted. If a person follows a "traditional" view, it's still an interpretation. If one follows a more "moderate" view, it's still an interpretation. There are different points of view for the same exact text. It doesn't mean one believes it's the word of God and one doesn't, it means they disagree about what those words really mean. Some will take it literally, some will take it metaphorically. Emphasis will be put on different verses and ideas for different interpretations of Islam as a whole. It's so far from being all black and white. So very far.

Candice said...

Jamilah: Thank you for commenting.

Stimulus said...

I guess I came in a bit late, but anyway. I'm a strong believer, and I feel lucky because I'm sure of my beliefs. I understand how you feel, and I think it's mainly due to the fact that maybe (only maybe) you're not living Islam in everything you do. Hence you don't feel it. And feeling it, really feeling that it is the only thing that'll make you completely happy, is the only proof I've got.

I hope I didn't confuse you there, but have a look at my post, it might help you understand what I mean by "feeling it in everything you do":http://oman-stimulus.blogspot.com/2010/01/ingredient-to-success.html

Cheers!

Candice said...

You're definitely right that including Islam in everything will make a person a stronger Muslim. But the point still is that I believe that there is no knowledge about the existance of God, just personal belief (which can be weak or strong).

Anisah said...

I'm a former Muslim. I'm agnostic and a member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation.

Anisah, fellow agnostic

Anonymous said...

God has proven His existence and has told us there are proofs all round us. To say "But I know there isn't that proof" is to deny what God has told us.

Candice said...

I call those signs, and yes, they are there.

Exploring Life and Islam © 2008. Template by Dicas Blogger.

TOPO