Monday, April 13, 2009

Sex Toys between partners

I'm not going to put up a picture of a dildo for this one. haha.

So I was on http://pinkislam.com and I was just browsing around and got to the fatwas about marital relations. I clicked on this one here about the use of sex toys between a husband and wife. I was kind of laughing! See the note at the bottom about how the sheikh didn't even seem to understand the question. His response left me with more questions than answers, which is a strange thing for a fatwa! I really don't think it should be there. In fact, I don't think the response is really worth being used at all. He should have been clarified further, poor man.

What I got from his answer was that to use sex toys to make yourself orgasm is not permissible, since it's really no different than using your own hand, which is not permissible.

BUT I do not know of any ruling on a husband using HIS hand on HIS WIFE to satisfy her sexually. I know that it is a man's obligation to sexually satisfy his wife, and we all know that can't always be done through penetration alone. That's not enough for some women! And some men need that extra touch too sometimes. So to satisfy each other, from what I know about Islam, it should be permissible for them to touch each other's private parts. Right? Or wrong? Because I honestly have read nothing for or against the touching of your spouses genitalia.

If it is not permissible for spouses to touch each other's parts, then of course, I would conclude that it is not permissible to use sex toys on each other. But then a woman, and even a man, could risk being left unsatisfied sexually by their partners!

But if it is permissible for spouses to touch each other's parts, then it should be permissible for them to use something else, like some lubricant, warming lubricant, a vibrator, etc. since this is not the same as mastubating since the other partner is holding it.

A dildo becomes another question entirely since it is in the shape of a man's parts and also, is often not used only for touching but also inserting, and so becomes comparable to a man inserting his fingers into his wife... Is that permissible? I know that of course, insertion into a man is NOT permissible and so no dildo should be used on him in that way!!

The sheikh did not understand the ways people can use sex toys on each other, and was only thinking of masturbation from what I can see in his answer. And so the question was not answered entirely. Does anyone actually have an answer for me?

My own conclusion is that it is permissible for the spouses to use toys on each other as foreplay, but that the man should not have an orgasm from it. And that it is permissible for the woman to have an orgasm from it if she did not have one from the penetration with her husband. Agree? Disagree? I could easily change my mind based on what you bring to the table.

33 Comentários:

Blue said...

WOW!!! If you ask me to make a list of topics that will be discussed on this blog, this one would have been nowhere on that list. I'm glad you brought it up though because it is important to have answers to such questions.

First of all, masturbation, self-stimulation is not haram in Islam. It is "frowned upon". For men, some scholars say that if it helps relieve sexual tension then it's ok, because fornication is definitely haram. For women it's a more sensitive issue, because if the woman breaks her hymen by accident then her virginity might come into question which can be a big problem in an Islamic society.

Regarding the issue of what is allowed between a husband and his wife, everything goes except anal. Men have to take into account what their wives want and vice versa. Toys are ok as long as they're not used for anal penetration on either man or woman.

And I know you didn't ask about this, but I'll go ahead and tell you that costumes are OK too. Whatever works for ya.

Candice said...

I read about masturbation being OK as a last resort, but for someone who is not married and not able to get married so I would tend to think it's not OK for someone married and living with his/her spouse daily. Unless they have a very difficult spouse or a sick one...

Blue said...

I agree with you Candice, besides, I don't think there are people who prefer masturbation over sex, but still, it's not "prohibited", it's just an alternative when the first choice is not available for any reason.

أم ترافيس said...

Blue, do u have evidence for that?

Candice said...

I like how accomodating Islam is like that. People are stricter in Islam than most Christians, but it is more open and accomodating (less strict), I find.

Blue said...

Just go to www.islamonline.net and snoop around in the section where scholars answer people's questions. I have read such things years ago so I don't remember where to find them exactly.

Jamilah said...

Wow, this was a 'blushing' post :)

Blue, IslamOnline.net is known for making everything permissible in one way or another... its not the best source for fatwas.

Blue said...

Jamilah, I respectfully disagree.

Anyway, I have found far fewer fatwas prohibiting masturbation than those allowing them. Everyone agrees that it's not a nice habit to have, myself included, and all scholars recommend that the individual having such urges try and occupy himself/herself with something more useful, like exercising.

But like I said, female masturbation is a more sensitive issue and can have complications, so most scholars are against it. Scholars however are not that rigid when it comes to male masturbation (big surprise), because males have higher sex drives and sexual tension can be harmful, both physically and socially.

So in general, masturbation is considered the lesser of two evils. Better be a masturbator than a fornicator or a rapist.

It is best if you totally abstain, but not all people can do that, and any religion has to be mindful of everyone.

I hope I was clear enough, because I have researched this subject quite a bit. Only the strictist of the strictist scholars (the really extreme ones) are against masturbation. Islam as I see it is not that strict, at least not when it comes to issues that aren't black or white but grey, like masturbation and using sex toys.

Candice said...

I read some stuff on IslamOnline.net every once in a while and I don't feel they allow everything asked. I guess it's possible that the sheikhs answering the questions are slightly more liberal than most, but I don't see that as a bad thing, as long as they are not inventing stuff with no basis. I like to imagine that everything is permissible as long as it's not prohibited instead of seeing it the other way around.

Blue said...

You're spot on Candice.

The Quran tells the story of Moses and his people when God asked them to slaughter a calf. They kept asking questions, and by that they only made it harder for themselves.

I think Muslims would do themselves a favor if they learnt from that mistake. Don't complicate things. There is nothing in the Quran or the Hadith that prohibits masturbation, but some scholars assume that because they think it is socially unacceptable that it is haram. That is called imposing your cultural beliefs, not your religion.

Scholars can say drugs like coke or heroin are haram because they cause are in many ways similar to alcohol, but such deductions can't be made about masturbation because there is nothing that resembles it. It's not sex (which is haram unless it's with your spouse) and it's not abstention either. Same goes for sex toys; if you're not using them to do prohibited stuff then they are not haram.

Jamilah said...

Only the extreme ones? thats cute. Well.. I don't take from Islamonline.net because they make things that are clearly forbidden permissible... I won't get into it, but its pretty well known that they are a liberal leaning site. When asked about riba based loans they say how bad it is and then turn around and say if its a necessity you can do it.. thats just wrong. They also have rulings that its ok for men and women to shake hands... again.. wrong.

I trust only the best scholars.. its kind of a rule of mine. Check out the ruling here:
http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/329

Blue said...

Excuse me, but there is nothing in that link saying that it is haram except the mufti.

Trangrssing is not sinning, otherwise the Quran would have said "sinners". If God wanted it to be forbidden without any doubt he would have used a stronger word.

And like I said, it's better to abstain.

Candice said...

Jamilah: I was wondering what a riba based loan was and so I googled it and I found the question you're probably referring to from IslamOnline... The person whose father risks going to jail? I think they gave good advice based on this person's particular situation and that it's not "just wrong" to have told that person what they did. I also think that shaking hands with men is fine. But obviously that's me and not you.

Someone commented in my post about obeying your husband about how what I had read was basically "Islamic theory" and it makes me view these types of "stern" (trying not to use the word "extreme") rulings you like to go by in that way. I read them and see them as an ideal that a person should strive for, but I don't feel they are for every situation. I think that the person asking about his or her father should definitely help with a loan if there is no other choice, rather than let the dad risk jail!! I don't understand how anyone could see it any other way!

Jamilah, the way you write things... I have trouble with. Everything is always so clear to you that you seem fully unable to imagine any other way of thinking. Your mind is so closed to these things that you can't even phrase things as, for example, "I believe it is forbidden." Things are always "clearly forbidden". Try to keep this wording away from my blog because I support an open mind. Add "to me" at the end or state it as a belief and not a fact. Because it is not a fact. We're all just trying to figure things out.

أم ترافيس said...

That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah’s sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart. (Bukhari and Muslim)

Good for you sis Jamilah, may Allah always give you hidayah ameen

JaLpArI said...

I totally agree with you sis...
it is very important for any man/woman tosatisfy his/her partner... and most of the times, it's not penetration but the foreplay which is more important...
sometime back i had been reading that it is halaal for a man to touch or even lick/suck his wife's genitalia.. same goes for a woman to her husb...
in that case i assume twud be ok to use sex toys on the partner too...
but..........
wat if the gal orgasms b4 penetration??? ;) wid d sex toy itself??? nd i don mean by penetration??/

Candice said...

I think a person is not supposed to "consume" these fluids since they are considered impure so a man should not ejaculate during oral sex for that reason. However, I read that "coitus interruptus" (pulling out) is OK in Islam, so that makes me think that 1) birth control is generally OK and 2) (more related to what I wanted to say) that a man does not only need to ejaculate from intercourse. So as far as I can see, he (and the woman too) could have an orgasm from their partner's touching them without ever having any penetration.

Jamilah said...

I'm sorry if my confidence in what is right and wrong bothers you. I know the other opinions exist I just don't believe they are the right one. My goal in life is to obey and worship Allah. I do that by taking special care to follow Quran and Sunnah and the top scholars interpretations of them.

Blue, do what you want.. but for everyone that is misguided by something you say you will have to answer for it on the day of judgment.

Oh and as for Riba based loans, that is not the ruling I'm talking about. I had not seen that one. I'm talking about them saying that if you really really need a car you can take a loan. There are other ruling they make that bother me as well, but I won't go into them.

If you look long and hard enough you can find a ruling to make anything permissible. You've just got to be careful where you take knowledge from.

Candice said...

Jamilah, it's not your confidence, because I wouldn't be bothered by, for example, "I strongly believe..." (which is pretty confident) at all. But anyway, I am picky about the wording of things in general and I don't want to cause I big deal, I just needed to get it out there since it has been this way for a lot of your comments here.

Here is the link to the riba loan question. http://islamonline.com/news/articles/3/Should_he_take_a_riba_based_loan_to_save_his_fathe.html
It fits perfectly with what you were saying about them. Talks about how had it is, then allowed it in case it was very necessary for that person (to prevent dad from jail).

Jamilah said...

Well I'm sorry if the way I word things bothers you. Its how I am and how I think. I don't think you want me to water it down for you, do you?

I stand by what I say. And thats all I can do. If someone else wants to find the impermissible, permissible, then I can't help it.

Jamilah said...

One other thing... people say to me a lot that the way I think about things is closed minded. I always remind them that I am just passing on the opinions of some of the most learned scholars out there. The ones that don't water it down to appease the people. They say it like it is.

You know the best scholars are the way they are because they fear Allah. They are not trying to please anyone else. I take it seriously. Some don't. Oh well.

Blue said...

Jamilah,

Is it not true that the Quran didn't forbid alcohol in one go but gradually? Is that "watering it down"? (your words, not mine)

Didn't the Prophet say that if he didn't mind being stern with his people he would have asked them to use Sewak before every prayer? Is he "watering down" his message? Is he an appeaser?

You see, that's the difference between Muslims and Islam. You have no problem whatsoever being tough with your people. On the other hand the Prophet emphasized compassion and tolerance. You have become obsessed with the trivial stuff and you're not seeing the bigger picture.

And btw, the term "top scholars" means different things to different people. Saudi's may think that Al Azhar scholars are liberal userpers, and Egyptians may think that Saudi scholars are ultra-conservative zealots. It's all relative.

And btw, I don't think I'm misguiding people because all I did was express my point of view. They can embrace it or reject it. I'm not trying to guide anybody, because after all, I could be wrong.

Do you think you might be wrong Jamilah? My guess is no, you don't. But again, I could be wrong on that too.

What Candice and I and not seeing from you is a sense of humility that must be present in all those who seek enlightenment, because if you're not humble about your approach towards finding the truth about life, you will not accept that truth even if it's right in front of you.

Anonymous said...

@ Jamilah
Is there an objective test of " best scholar" or "top scholar"? Just because you do not agree with a scholar's point, you cannot say he is watering down the religion/ there should be room for different interpretations.

Candice said...

Blue, thanks for your comment. You worded it better and most importantly, differently, than I did. Can only help clarify what I'm trying to get across.

I don't really understand what "top scholar" really means... From what has been said, it's someone who doesn't water down the religion, someone who is more learned than other scholars and someone who fears Allah more than others. So basically... Well... I donno!

Jamilah said...

I'm going to just leave this alone. When people are threatened by things they don't want to hear, they attack. Say you don't have humility or that your words are harsh etc...

If you think about it, you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of... you are convinced of your view... I'm convinced of mine. Its not arrogance... its fear of Allah.

May Allah guide us all.

Candice said...

Yes, best to leave it alone. I had to go back to see where the disagreement started because I seriously did not even remember.

Going back leaves me with the question: Who freakin' cares if one person believes it's OK to masturbate in the case of "necessity" (avoiding something worse like pre-marital relations) while you think it is not?! Honestly... this got way out of hand for such an unimportant topic! I can only laugh!

cairo, lusaka, amsterdam said...

Blue, this post was excellent:

"I think Muslims would do themselves a favor if they learnt from that mistake. Don't complicate things. There is nothing in the Quran or the Hadith that prohibits masturbation, but some scholars assume that because they think it is socially unacceptable that it is haram. That is called imposing your cultural beliefs, not your religion."

SO TRUE. Having lived in an Islamic country for 5 years now I'm so sick of Arabs imposing their strict conservative culture on Islam. No wonder Islam has such a negative global image: it has the image of Arab culture, that's why!

Anonymous said...

"Its not arrogance... its fear of Allah."

Jamilah, have another look at your statement. It implies that those Muslims that don't follow your favoured scholars do not fear Allah.

But it's all relative. True, people are threatened by what they don't want to hear and Candice and Blue simply have a different point of view. But at the end of the day, that's all it is - a point of view.

I admire your tenacity though.

God bless.

Anonymous said...

I genuinely believe that in marriage, using sex toys is halal.

THIS COMMENT IS 100% WORTH READING:

Read on if you are not sexually excited..This comment is not one which is going to sexually excite you in any way lol, I am looking at the anatomy here.
Think about this....a woman divorces a man who has a great ability to PHYSICALLY sexually satisfy her (she divorces him for other reasons obviously). Then she decides to marry a man who has not got the same ability to PHYSICALLY sexually satisfy her, although the spirituality, emotional connection, feeling of love, union commitment and erotica make it a fulfilling experience overall. But there is a PHYSICAL VACANCY. So the wife is left not pleasured as much as she could have been. So the use of toys will enhance the sex life between the husband and wife, and make them develop stronger bonds. I think it is MORALLY incorrect to prohibit married couples from using sex toys on eachother. They want to pleasure eachother more than they thought they could, the more sexual pleasure we give to our marital partners, the more Allah will love us. That is my personal belief and it seems completely logical. Sex toys must be a MUTUAL agreement. And should not lead to other forms of sin (which is less likely because their sex lives will be more fulfilled).

They prohiit it because it is "unnatural", but fail to look at the greater good in it, the sharia lawyers are spiritual people but fail to see the spiritual benefits of this. Sex is for physical pleasure and more importantly, spiritual pleasure, are they really right by saying no to them? islamweb dot net notice this idea and imply that there is no harm if they do or not want sex toys in the marriage.

A man with a 2.5-3 inch penis cannot sexually please a woman with a naturally large vagina, surgery is rather ineffective, people only gain an inch or two, whereas a vagina tightening cream or even a penis sleeve will solve this problem, then after the female is satisfied with a penis sleeve, then she will take the just action and satisfy her husband fully, her vagina will me more sensitive at this time too, so it will feel more sexually pleasurable.

If we have learnt Islamic views on sexual intercourse, and we have a great amount of intelligence (more than many 'top scholars'), then we can interpret it for ourselves.

To my opinion it is not a transgression. I personally believe that if sex toys are dealt with in a halal way, then it is the right thing to do. i.e a penis sleeve....it will be unjust and thus haram on behalf of the woman if the man uses this on her and she feels very physically satisfied and does not want him to have his turn feeling physically satisfied by allowing natural sex to occur, maybe with help of a vagina tightening cream...and it would be unjust and haraam if the woman uses a prosthetic vagina on him, and then he says that he will not satisfy his wife the natural way, she will be left physically unsatisfied. So sex toys should be halal, but the way you deal with it can be either haram or halal. Even if the man or women expresses or shows that they are uninterested in their spouses private parts, this is just abuse thus haram. In Islamic Marriage, sex is important, physical pleasure plays the smallest part in the overall sexual experience, and they should express an interest in eachother sexually just because they are husband and wife and Islamically lawful for eachother.

Also, if one opts for a sex toy and can sense even the slightest bit of upset from their spouse, then they should not consider it and should reassure their partner that sex is for love and sex is to get nearer to Allah and is a way of showing Allah our love to Him because He says there is reward for sex with our marital partner and we are also showing appreciation to our martial partner.

TBC

Anonymous said...

. See how spiritual and amazing sex in Islam is if you look at it the way you are supposed to look at it, and any additional physical pleasure from sex toys just adds to such a powerful experience.


Am I wrong here? If I am, tell me your views.

Assalamualaikum

contact me on brianman1980@yahoo.com if you would like to chat about it more.

Anonymous said...

May Allah forgive me if I have unintentionally misguided people. If you are misguided by this, you're just being dumb.

Umm Shahid said...

There's a site called sex toys islam. It's for Muslim couples no vibes but adult games, flavored lubricants, handcuff etc. It's adult stuff but other than the name it seems to be pretty suitable.

Patrick said...

Salam aleikum to all of you,

I come from a scientist background, was Catholic before, converted to Islam about 20 years. One of the things I admired - and still do - in Islam is this strict and layered approach to prove opinions, starting from the Coran, Hadiths and up to the Sunnah ... and then only followed by advice from scholars. Knowing that the Coran is the only fully reliable source, the Hadiths and Sunnah potentially error prone and the advice of the scholars, just human statements.

The important thing is: no prove, no rule. And there is no single prove with regard to masturbation as for most other sexual practices, as well as for a lot of other topics. These are just statements based on cultural and historical interpretation done by these scholars.

We - as Muslims - far to often focus on these things that make us different from each other and we severely judge each other based on these things. We stamp based on some basic reading the behavior of others as haram and finger-point them, while others are finger-pointing us for other things they believe are wrong. We don't unite around what are our core values.

And - this is just my opinion - we as the Muslim community should with the all the religious, scientific, political, ... expertise we have in our community re-visit rules, fatwas and other things that we have inherited from 14 centuries of history by starting from the foundations ... the Holy Coran ...

May Allah guide us :-)

Anonymous said...

Assalamwalaikum, and thank you for providing this safe space to bring up questions that otherwise may be initimidating to ask elsewhere..

I have been married for over a year and a half and met my husband once after my marriage to him. We have been living apart due to immigration reasons and soon to be insha'Allah together. However, my question to you is maybe redundant or usual, but I needed to know if it is ok to masturbate thinking of your spouse? I know of the different exceptions, but to self-contain from other haram activities - both for him and myself, we weren't sure if we were allowed to act on our feelings towards each other.

May Allah forgive us for any wrongdoings we may have committed.

Thank you in advance.

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